Ahmadu Ali is a retired Army Colonel, a physician and politician. In 1973, he became the first Director-General of the National Youth Service Corps (NYSC), a position he held until 1975 when he was appointed Minister of Education, during which he was nicknamed ‘Ali Must Go’ on account of a nationwide students protest.
He served also as Chairman of the PDP National Working Committee (NWC) from 2005 to 2007. By the time he finished his assignment as head of ‘africa’s largest party’, the Kogi State-born politician had acquired another controversial alias; the ‘Garrison Commander.’ In the last general elections, he was the Director-General of the Goodluck Jonathan/Mohammed Sambo Presidential Campaign Organisation, which saw the PDP out of power, after a 16-year rule.
Even under the current PDP crisis, his wife, Mrs. Ali is a chieftain of the Ali Modu Sherrif-led PDP faction while he remains with the Ahmed Makarfi faction.
When he spoke with JACOB EDI at his Maitama Abuja residence, he didn’t mince words when he said President Muhammadu Buhari will win a second term if he offers himself for re-election. This is in spite of the hue and cry by Nigerians over the current economic hardship. He also accused western powers of being behind the crisis within the PDP with the ultimate aim of destabilizing the country for their economic and political gains.
Your party, the PDP is currently embroiled in crisis and a battle for survival. What actually went wrong?
The PDP imbroglio is most unfortunate but it is all within the realm of politics. If APC finds that they are not performing excellently well and we who can claim to be experts in running the country for 16 years are now outside government and we keep criticizing, the best thing is to find a way of disorganising us and they succeeded in disorganising us.
So, you are saying that the problem in the PDP now is caused by APC?
Of course
Didn’t you people see it coming?
We saw it coming… We saw it coming. May be some of us didn’t see it in this particular angle that it appeared. We knew that that was bound to happen… disorganize the opposition, if not you will have no peace, so that is what they have done.
And again our friends, the enemy outside Nigeria who believed that the PDP has broken such a record in the governance of Nigeria… 16 years uninterrupted… one political party… it has never happened in Nigeria. So they believed that leaving the PDP to continue in that run, they will end up to become an impossible party that they cannot manipulate, like the Gulf Party of the Arabs where they had to destroy Saddam and everybody to disorganize the region.
Are you saying that the crisis in the PDP has international dimension?
It has. There is no doubt about it.
Can you be more specific, is it the western powers?
Which other power are we dealing with? How much of the East is actually here? Everybody in the world knows that the Chinese come for business and they don’t care about what you are doing with your politics. But your other brothers who have been helping us since independence, we keep fooling ourselves that there is free lunch. There is no free lunch anywhere. Their quid needs a pro quo. So they know what they want before they come to you and what they might extract from that.
Are you trying to exonerate the PDP?
I am not saying this to praise PDP. No. Definitely our last administration from what we are hearing now, because I was not in government so I would not have known what happened, but from what we are hearing now, it didn’t sound right.
We might have gone to some excesses. But the present people there are not different, you will soon find out.
With people like you in the PDP and other leaders, very experienced politicians, how come that APC on the one side and the western powers on the other side were able to infiltrate the party to the extent that they…?
(Cuts in) You are talking as if they sat and met and colluded. No. Everybody is working from his own axis, for its own interest, that is what has been is happening. When the Americans wrote their document that Nigeria will disintegrate in 2015, at most 2030, it was a huge research they did. So if you play into their hands of course…
We just suddenly sat and some of our own nationals said they are now Boko Haram and start murdering people left, right and centre, what is it they want?
Even if you want to put Islamic rule, is it not people you are going to rule over? And you go round and kill them all. There is nowhere in the Quran where that is mentioned, so they must be reading something else outside the Quran.
Do you see the prediction of the Americans coming to pass? That is, the disintegration of Nigeria?
As long as we in Nigeria can sit up and behave ourselves, we will be able to hold forth; but if we cannot, we will fuel their ambition because what they would have wanted is to capture the oil producing area and put it in their pocket and do whatever they like. All the wars in the world, the source of the war is fight for energy, they are getting petrol from Iraq now free of charge, Libya free of charge now, there is no government in those places.
So you can see that if they can have their way, why not? Boko Haram… we knew what these people were doing, they were slaughtering people and throwing them into mass graves, we saw it all on the websites and our friends said they won’t sell bullet to us because what we are going to do with the bullet is against human rights.
These Boko Haram people are they humans? What they are doing is against human rights too. That a whole government is denied? And when they said alright, they have come to help us, they are now helping us, and they brought their drones to help us. The drones that they brought they were quartered in Chad, not on Nigerian soil and the Boko Haram was at that time going wild. When we asked what is happening, what is the value of all the assistance; the people controlling the drones, you ask them ‘don’t you see the Boko Haram people coming so that you alert the Nigerian army to move in that direction’ and they said yes, ‘even if we see it, we are not responsible to you, our commander in chief is in Washington, we report to him, until he gives us order we cannot tell you.’ So what value is that assistance?
But will these western powers that you are talking about be funding an Islamic organisation as it were?
In this game anything goes. Boko Haram itself, Taliban, whatever name you call them, they are all the creation of the western powers.
What of the Avengers in the South-South now?
How are we sure where they came from? Because when we were trying to put down this one, some people now called themselves the Avengers, what are they avenging? If Nigeria can tolerate their son to rule over us for six years, a very infinitesimal tribe, not even as large as Igala, what are you avenging? Because you lost an election?
Couldn’t that be enough reason?
We fought for him, we are not very popular up north now but it is our party and we are fighting for our party. So why should they come up and say Avengers during Buhari’s own time. What are they avenging?
Buhari came by providence and we can see like a typical military man, that the first thing he did was to order the whole of the army headquarters to move to that zone, don’t sit in Abuja and be sending signal. And as soon as they moved there, you can see the difference. Boko Haram is dying gradually and by the grace of God it will soon be history.
Some people believe that one of the reasons former President Jonathan lost the election was his inability as it were, to contain the Boko Haram insurgency. Is it true?
Well, that is partly true, I say partly, because it is like a consequence because the zone where the Boko Haram is rife, PDP has never been strong there and if we couldn’t contain Boko Haram how could we win the election there? It is not possible for us to win the election there; we have to contain Boko Haram.
What, in your view, are the other reasons that made the PDP not to win the election?
You know the nature of Nigerians, they get easily fed up. Buhari is doing a fine job at the moment, trying to straighten the economy, put things right. His method may be hard but so are radical surgeries. Rather than allow a disease to claim lives, a radical surgeon will save life and that is what he is doing and some people don’t appreciate it, it is inconveniencing.
Nobody is happy, he knows it and he says it himself that he knows that people are suffering and complaining and that it is only for a short time that we should bear with them. But Nigerians are totally impatient and I would not be surprised if 16 years of PDP they feel they are fed up, they want a change and they have got the change now.
Would you say PDP did anything to justify their expectation that Nigerians would stick by them after 16 years?
Well, I think the PDP did a lot for Nigeria during its time. I cannot say much, a lot of changes have come. If you remember at one time, they said telephone was not for the poor but today my servants, my stewards, my driver, my cook, they all have telephones. It is a PDP revolution that brought the GSM. During the PDP’s time, we caught up with the internet world, everybody now, even my grand children they know how to operate the internet; these are things people tend to forget.
“Fashola on his first arrival as minister said that PDP has made more roads than any government in Nigeria and we tend to have forgotten. And the huge debts burden, it was the PDP government that negotiated and the debts were cancelled, if not that debt would have been there and it would have piled up now.
But we are hearing stories of massive corruption, stealing of money during the PDP government, what do you make of that?
We are hearing it and those that stole the money are being brought to book and some of the money are being recovered. All that concerns many people who complained to us, although we are no more in government, is that, that money, let them pour it into the system to refloat the economy.
As things stand now, do you see the PDP recapturing power in 2019?
By the grace of God, I see it as a contending force for power in 2019.
I am not a prophet, so I cannot prophesy whether they will win or not.
Why do you say so?
Because Buhari’s performance that you are criticizing now, give him another year you will be singing his praise and as far as Nigeria is concerned they have forgotten the past, they will vote for him unless he is not standing. If Buhari is standing in 2019, people will vote for him.
Is it because of performance or the character of Nigerians, because everywhere now they are shouting?
Initially, in order to get something good, you have to do a radical surgery, that radical surgery the pain is what we are suffering from; I am telling you when the pains heal and we start enjoying the surgery that was put in place, we will be ready to vote again if it is the same Buhari because they will say if things go wrong, he knows how to fix it.
That means PDP doesn’t stand a chance in 2019?
It doesn’t follow, if he continues to perform well and he wants to come back then we have a problem to contend with but that doesn’t mean we cannot defeat him after all he defeated us so we should be able to defeat him. But what we are saying is that the PDP has got a strong chance if they can stop the present fracas.
How will it stop?
It is coming to an end, it will stop.
Former President Obasanjo recently said PDP does not present a credible opposition. He also said that the APC is not presenting a strong leadership at the centre. How do you react to this?
That man is the greatest Nigerian alive today when it comes to the governance of Nigeria and one has to be very careful if you want to analyze his statements because some of them are heavily loaded and you don’t know and you are seeing so much that his statement weighs a lot both nationally and internationally.
So, what he said is the fact, he is no more interested in partisan politics, he is a 100% statesman and that is why he is chastising both APC and PDP.
I am sure you must have heard talks about restructuring, fiscal federalism; some part of Nigeria threatening secession, what do you make of this?
What I make of it all is hot air balloons because when you look at restructuring, the definition varies from one writer to another and we ourselves have not even defined what is restructuring yet.
Some think restructuring means the six zones, who created them? Nobody. There is no constitutional backing for the zones we are working with now; it was a creation of Abacha to capture power by donating premier, vice premier, first vice president, second vice president, so that every zone will have something, that was his idea. The politicians just find it convenient and they gravitated to using it, it has no constitutional backing at all.
People say I am controversial… these zones were created for the south east to come around and say their own zone has the least number of states, I think they are being clever by half, they don’t. If there is anybody that should complain about the number of states in each zone, it should be southwest. In the south west, they also removed Edo and Delta state; they are left with the core Yoruba states alone from the old western region.
The old eastern region was the five Igbo states and Bayelsa, Rivers, Akwa Ibom and Cross River, that was how the equation was. So, they only took two states from western region, joined it to a group they call the south south now but the whole of that south south belongs to the old eastern region of those days. So, what makes them feel that anybody is cheating them, nobody is cheating them.
But the southeast is talking about pulling out of Nigeria.
Where are they going to? They are the last people to think about pulling out of Nigeria.
Is it because they lack the courage or capacity?
No, they are great economists and they are great performers. I believe that Nigeria cannot do without the southeast, that is my saying. The Igbo are an inevitable part of Nigeria.
But they want to go, don’t they have the right to self determination?
They cannot go. Those who are saying that are just making hot air and it is a way to get more, that is what they are doing because they have more to lose. All this idea that some people call themselves people of Biafra and they try to put some south south states together with them, the elders in the south south states have not forgotten when they were part of eastern region and what they suffered from the hands of the Igbo in the south east.
Up till tomorrow, the quarrel about abandoned properties is still there. Most of Port Harcourt was built by Igbo and after the civil war they lost it all, they rejected their C of O and shared it among themselves. Do you think these people will agree? They won’t.
Looking at the North, they are bothered if the southeast wants to go because of some mineral resources discovered up North now?
Which mineral resources? They were there before the President came in. Which new one was discovered? They have been there all along. Our misfortune is that from one government to another, government we did not bother about exploring solid minerals, we were mainly interested in oil, it is cheap, dig it out, the white man carries it out and you get dollars.
Before this time, did you know that Jos was known for tin mining, has the tin finished? Nobody is mining it any more. The white man even turned Jos into his country, the amalgamated tin mines of Jos, they turned that place into their home.
So, it is not that the North is scared about the southeast leaving Nigeria?
Nobody is scared. What we are saying is that the South easterner himself, those who matter, they know they will be the loser.
What of the middle belt or North central, where do they stand in this equation?
The middle belt is the hot spot of all sorts of minorities that was even put together by God and they find themselves in this artificial creation of zones otherwise everybody has its allegiance to one way or the other.
The history of the middle belt is more like the history of Nigeria itself, disparate areas put together. If you think of the North west, it is the caliphate kingdom, The North east, the Kanem Borno empire with all the minorities there, if you come to the middle belt we are split. The caliphate extends into Nasarawa and the whole of Kwara is also the caliphate. So, it is the remainder of us, disparate tribes that came together, that barely remained, if not their allegiances is different.
So the middle belt cannot stand on its own?
Nigeria is standing on its own in spite of the disparate nature so why can’t they, they can. I am trying to tell you that basically if things are to go back to north, people have different allegiances. Ilorin will rather move with Sokoto than come along with Igala because it is a Fulani area. And then you come to Nasarawa here even from the name.
Some people believed especially from the appointments from President Buhari so far, that some of the lines that bind us together are more divided than before and that is why they begin to nurse the fear of a breakup.
And that is why I told you that the noise about pulling out is just about how to get more, they haven’t got enough and the only way they can do it is by saying you don’t reckon with us, we rather go our own way.
The South east doesn’t have the nerve to pull out?
I’m not a South easterner so I cannot tell you that. What I’m telling you is that they know the economic value of remaining within Nigeria than outside it.
What do you make of the current economic situation in Nigeria?
It is wretched.
Does it have anything to do with the economic team of the President or because they inherited a bad economy?
No, they inherited a problem hoping things are where they are and they will come and see it and start driving. They found out that either the hand break is not there or that there is no engine oil in the car or that the steering is shaking or that there is no light; so that was what they found and they are doing everything to put the car called Nigeria together; when they finished this reparatory job, Buhari that is being hated today will be praised later because he is only trying to put things right.
You said the problem was inherited. But at that time, Nigeria was still first in Africa economically, everything was in shape and going well.
If there is anything that we developing countries have to learn, is to learn what is called autarky technology, total independence of everybody around on agriculture, every food you eat, you grow it, that is agricultural autarky.
Why didn’t the PDP do this autarky?
Are we talking of PDP now? So, you do that economically, you would just run your economy to the advantage of the people. Comparing yourself with England, America, you can never catch up, just be ready to move at your pace, satisfy your people and move on. But to think that because in England now, this is what they are doing and you want it to happen here today, there is no infrastructure for it. So it doesn’t work.
Some of us who got education beginning from primary to university in Nigeria are more on the ground in this country than our children who went abroad to train, they are totally uprooted because the way they look at things they cannot understand why it is like that.
This autarky you talked about, at what point did you start thinking of this idea?
I have known about it for a long time.
Why wasn’t it part of the things that PDP gave to Nigeria?
PDP was giving you everything you wanted in every aspects, agriculture and so on and so forth but when you get to a stage where our appetite for foreign goods became too high, then it is getting stupid and the reason is that we have plenty of money to spend to buy it because you have to use foreign money.
If government had said no, we don’t need it, it should be banned and we should eat our own here then things would have been different. It is now we are thinking that way. We were not because we had the money and the white man was clapping for us, telling us that we were one of the greatest because a lot of our money were going for things that were totally useless and that is what they want. Their relationship with you every time is trade. How much are they making out of you.
I will tell you what a white friend of mine told me. We were having a drink and I said look, you people, you have to get off our backs, we are fed up with you people and he said look my friend, let’s get it straight, we cannot get off your back, if we get off your backs, we cannot survive and he is very right. And that is why anything that is happening here, they want to be involved.
Some people believe that the APC government prepared for post election crisis rather than having control of government and that is why some of the issues they are having now, they made a lot of wide promises and they are realizing now like you said that the hand break may not be good, the head lamp is bad and the ignition is bad; how do you see that situation?
How else can I see it, it is the way that you saw it that I see it too.
Do you think it is true that they were more prepared for post-election crisis?
The APC from the very beginning was not doing that thing to win. They wanted to harvest mayhem in the system and the PDP, we have become irrespective of…you know democracy is the most difficult form of government in the world, the rest are no better and that was what Churchill meant by ‘democracy is the worst form of government but for the rest; the rest are not better.’ Democracy is the worst machinery to handle.
We have been there for 16 years and it comes that we arranged an election and the returning officer says we are not the winner. We must learn to obey. We brought the returning officer, then we obeyed him. It is alright and let the other people have it after all, the nation is not for the PDP alone.
Do you think that a sovereign national conference can …?
(Cuts in) These are all hot air balloons. How many conferences will you have? We had one under President Jonathan, has President Buhari agreed to implement it? Why do you need another one, it is valueless, it is a waste of money and it will amount to nothing. There are enough materials to draw from and it is not writing of an agreement that you use in running a state, it is by being fair to all.
Bicameral or a unicameral legislature, which do you prefer for Nigeria?
For me, a bicameral legislature is more accommodative because the superior house will be of older members while the lower house will be of younger members. That is how this world is composed and we will be able to move together.
I will tell you that I prefer the Westminster system because I saw the Westminster system operate as an undergraduate and even after I graduated. It has its difficulties like other democracies but to me it is a better form because a member of parliament is the person who becomes the minister and he is still a member of parliament and he attends parliament.
But with the presidential system, the president can pick anybody at the road side who has nothing to do with politics, he did not canvas with you and make him anything and you who is elected by the people and known by the people has to go and beg him. That system is a little bit hard for us. The first system is easily more acceptable because even in the village square meeting, the elders committee are your fathers and uncles and so on that you live with, they take decision and you clap but you accept and you move on and you go back home again and start living together. But if the elders in the village meeting have to bring people from another tribe to come and take decision for you, it is crisis every time.
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